DAVID AMICO
Part Two: The Professional
N. So show me a finished painting, David.
They're all up front.
N. How many paintings do you think you do, in an average, a year?
I do between twenty and twenty-four.
N. Oh, that's a lot. Given your schedule as well.
I was going to say, as much as I totally understand what you're saying about you're wanting a structure that's clear and calm, but the way that the work evolves, it has to go through those muddy areas.
Sure. I just don't want to live in the mud anymore.
N. I know. I know. I totally agree. But every once in awhile I get sucked into that.
U - C, C - U, U - C?
N. It's like using language as a structure on which you hang meaning, shapes as a structure on which you hang meaning. You still use oil paint, David? When I saw the show, I was thinking that you really mastered this medium that's oil paint and use it in ways that people don't tend to think of or to see stuff.
Yeah. I don't even think of them as oil paintings. They're like big drawings.
N. Well I think it's because having oil paint stand up real thick but be real clean. People tend to think of oil paints as big messy paintings but you use it in this really graphic way.
Yeah, thanks.
N. But that's not traditional oil painting.
I wasn't taught traditional oil painting. So to me it's like typewriters, No, I mean it's like ... it's like you cutting out those, interweaving all those ...
N. All those papers?
Yeah, I still have that piece. You were calling those paintings, too.
N. Well I still have your piece, too. Well, the use of the stencil was because I wanted to create an under structure on which to make a painting. When I saw you using them I immediately related to it as a very structural thing and yet it was very much on the surface rather than underneath the surface, which was kind of interesting. Also, it's interesting how this is getting away from a mechanistic looking shape.
I wanted them to be really physical, but architecturally physical. The stuff that bothered me about the cartoons and stuff was that it was too graphic. And so building up was about making them less graphic. If it gets stamped on there like that, they become sort of sculptural.
N. It's like you could almost take them off.
I wanted to get away from the drawing part of these things. And now if I do them I just literally draw them. I don't try to make them ...
N. Is this also put on through a stencil?
Yeah, right. Stenciled in. But it gets a little ... it's a little too illustrative.. Although they're, I mean they're nice. They're okay.
N. These are a lot more calm. It's like this big extensive surface.
You mean [than] the stuff back in the late 70s, the buildings with the tanks under them? (laughs)
N. I remember the one that was a hand that went into a face with birds coming out ...
Oh yeah. But I'm still getting lost like that. I get lost in painting that way. I don't mind it. In some respects, I've fought it. And those artists who didn't, I really respect.
N. That didn't fight it.
That didn't fight it, that just went with it. I really respect those people who did that.
N. Well I kind of concluded that's the ... the big angst part of painting is when you get lost, trying to rediscover the image. And I know I wanted to avoid that angst. It's not pleasant. And you know when you do try to avoid it, you tend to end up doing series of works that become kind of logical, and they might be very nice to do, but they don't have that impact or energy in them.
No, it makes sense. I've just not... I couldn't do it. I didn't want to do it. I'm not into that. For me, my personality, I can't do it. I can't do that. Like this painting. I feel somewhat embarrassed by.
N. Because you have to look through it so much you mean?
No, it ends up so clownish. And so brash. I don't mind it. I did it. It's fine. It's garish. When I started I used to do art this way. And then when we got into the sympathetic things, with the humanism and all this stuff and relating to the figure and all of that. You know, we opened up the cartoons and went through all of the stuff. And eventually ... All of that kind of perspective. But I prefer generally something that's quieter and has more of a quieter base to it. And takes on a quieter power, a quieter kind of power base, if you will.
N. One of the things that painting has, that a lot of visual information doesn't have, is tactile quality, which your paintings very much have.
Yeah. You can get into this physical, tactile quality. You can get into this quiet, but still very volatile, what they used to call a zen quality. I won't even do that. It's just a question of large expansion, where you're pulling out the subtleties and you get into this quiet meditative mode. You can reflect on nature and the power of it. It's a different kind of angst. It's no less or no more legitimate. There's already a great deal of history here so you do have to find new, original context for it. I'm not going to do color field painting. I'm not going to do A.E. So I have to find something new. So I'm in search of that. This was part of the investigation I was going through, this phase, and I did as much of it as I could and relied on it as far as I could, but now I'm moving more towards something that I can ... and obviously going through this helped me to make the choices for this.
N. Yeah, because I was going to say you're using some of the same techniques but you've just refined them and used them.
It's not a question of liking one better than the other. That's why I don't get involved with a lot of painterly riff raff about that because I don't believe in that. I like the fact that we came through conceptual art, we came through performance, we came through representation, we came through cynicism. And this is where I think painting is growing. It's going to have some relationship to different periods and what not, but it's going to move forward as well. I think a large scale, questioning, industrial-like entity in the lobby of one of these corporations, where they can give some thought about what they're doing. (laughs)
N. There's an aspect of something being calming and playing that role but it's sort of non-assuming and that has a lot to do with scale. You seem committed to this large scale, it seems, because you have consistently worked really large.
It's hard. But I like the idea, if I can pull it off I like to do it. But the older you get it's harder (laughs).
N. I know it's physically very demanding doing large scale work.
Yeah, I need help now. I call up people when I'm going to try to do something ...
N. Do you have people help you? So that they'll hold the ladders?
So that when I get ten feet off the ground I don't start getting motion sickness (laughs). But it's ... what is it? Serra's tilted arc in front of the federal building in New York? The older I get, now after we're talking about stuff, I can really respect this piece more and more (laughs).
N. You mean how he physically made it?
And why. Having the people walk around it.
N. It is domineering. But I have to admit, if I was an employee at one of those places and I had to walk around it everyday for lunch I'd be really pissed off too.
He's reminding them that they have to walk around something too. (laughs)
N. I remember one time there was this Di Suvero piece and for some reason people thought it looked like a hangman's noose. I didn't think about it. I just read this in the paper. And I then went down to the Oakland Art Museum and this lady approached me and she's got violets in her hat, and she goes "What do you think of that sculpture over there?" And I said, "Oh, it's alright." And she says, "Well I think it looks like a hangman's noose." I said,"Oh? Well fuck off!" (laughter)
You told her that!
N. I felt so empowered! Because the look on her face, like, you don't say that! But I can't think of myself doing something publicly. I guess it's a particular type of artist that can engage people that way. Can you think of yourself that way?
No. It's what you're willing to put up with, and what you're willing to engage with. Doug has constantly challenged me to engage those rooms at the gallery. So I'm not thinking about public buildings or anything, I'm just thinking about doing an exhibition at Ace. This is a demanding art directed entity. And you have to fill this room, you have to fill this wing, you have to fill this gallery. And there's just no ...This is not about committee. This is not about getting it past the art board. This is just a straight out show. It's not even a museum thing. You're not being asked to make sense of this for the public or anything. That experience has been very valuable, extremely valuable.
N. I remember seeing these ones. This was in your last show at Ace?
Well, they were just ... He'll put up a room. And a room in his gallery is like a show somewhere else.
N. That's a lot of pressure. I can see that not a lot of people could deal with that. And you want to continue it.
Yeah, absolutely.
M. What is the nature of the relationship?
It's funny, ... It's always been the work. He responded to my eclectic involvement. And I never could figure out why. I mean he came by one day and saw a number of pieces that I was putting together for a show in Pittsburgh and had me unwrap them. And there were several different things. And two or three people had come by to see the work. And he called me back after three days, and was interested in what I was doing. We've had an understanding. He's told me about the business and kept me abreast of what's happening and what's going on and what needed to be done. And so I've always spoken highly of him.
M. What did you call them before, the early dealers?
The quick things. Those times were so quick and everybody was jumping on it. There were magazines, there were galleries, there were ... The attention was endless. We were ...
N. ..."The young turks."
"The young turks", if you will. We were getting more attention than people that had been in the business for thirty or forty years. And they were doing it overnight, because of the financial status, the financial gains, and all of the styles and the suits and all the rest of it. But when I walked into Ace ... going into a situation where all of a sudden you had power, and it had to do with the work itself and not anything else, working with someone who is interested in this and not just about sales and stuff.
N. What about the flip side, of all the people's complaints about Christmas being so demanding and so unreasonable. You haven't experienced that? Or you can just deal with it?
In all fairness, I walked into it with different expectations. I went into it because of what I believe in and what I believe in is what I've been talking about. This whole kind of idealistic package. And that's he's an idea guy and he's an idea guy committed to art. And his package is idealistic. The other stuff about the financial things, we both ...
N. ... we aren't going to let this hang us up.
No. I'm still living downtown as a result of my own commitment to wanting to make this kind of work. I've made a lot of sacrifices for that. He's made a lot of sacrifices to keep those spaces going .. and keep that work up in light of the fashions that have come through. So I don't call him up. I don't have a lifestyle. I don't have an agenda. I know he doesn't either. So we get along really well. I can't speak for other people. I respect what other people are doing. He's helped me tremendously. The ten years I've been with him have been very ...
M. You've been there for ten years?
The ten years I've been with him, it's been very professional... He's helped me. I've no problem saying that. Just the atmosphere of the gallery, the professionalism of the secretaries, the way that they get things done. They let me know what's going on. But I don't have a lot of demands on them. It's not like I'm calling, "You've got to tell me what happened. I've already spent this much..." I don't do that. My relationship's different. If someone's is more complex than ... I won't ... I can't say what their relationship is.
N. Well, I just realize for myself, that if you don't reach a certain amount of ambitiousness in your work – and you're not going to tend to if you don't have a support system, which means showing since I don't mean money – then you're weakened as an artist. It's important to have that.
I respect what he does. And I feel that he respects what I do. And he certainly shows a whole hell of a lot of interest in artists. So when people have come to me with their problems with him, it's none of my business. I mean I don't know what that is and I defend him because I understand what my relationship is with him. Ultimately I have to respect what that vision is. I mean I like the fact that he's making this, it's is not a gallery anymore, this is a museum. And it's not run by committee. And it's not run by soapbox. And it's not run by the Times. It's run by a belief in the work itself.
N. Well I have to say that I am more excited to go to Ace shows. Even given his reputation, it's still kind of exciting when you go to an Ace show. Just because he does mount big ambitious shows where the commitment is very total, it's not a tentative. How does he have the means to do this?
He just believes in it and somehow he gets the job done. The thing that I respect about him, the reason I haven't listened to stories about him is because I know that a lot of people bring in a lot of stuff, or have expectations of things. You know, it costs a lot to get a piece of art from the artist's studio to a collector's home or a collector's collection. There's a lot of handshaking that takes place. His part of the business is really complex. And I've never heard him complain about it. But I do know that he goes through great lengths to get things done. He doesn't like the word 'no' or 'I can't'. I know that our relationship has always been straight. He's always been straight with me. I've gone in ... I've talked to him passionately a couple of times about my concerns. And he's responded passionately back, with his concerns. As long as I'm able to do that with him ... Again the bottom line is what he's doing there ... I just feel like a part of it. The people that he shows ... I mean I don't feel that I've established what I do clearly enough. You know I'm still making art and...I feel somewhat ...
N. Well I'm still making art, and I'm still trying to find someone to show it.
Well, you know there are a lot of people who still are. And in a way I'm still making art, I have a place to show it, but I'm still waiting for some sort of acceptance ... of the work.
N. You mean on a broader audience.
Outside of Doug. I've never knocked the public dead with the sales thing. I've done well. I've done well enough to keep painting. And when I make that comment I don't mean to say that ... I've done extremely well for an artist. But I mean the kinds of stories that you read about when Sam Francis passes away and he leaves all this property, the houses that the artists were building in the 80s, and the islands and stuff.
N. What I'm really impressed with in talking to you is this idea of professionalism. I know my own job, which is too demanding, it's frustrating. But it does make me more clear headed and more professional in certain ways. It's a big advantage. And I look at a lot of these people that are scrambling, running around for all these teaching jobs, and it's only for a quarter here and a quarter there. And it's just driving them kind of nuts. They don't have a chance to really focus as much as they need to.
I was having that problem when I was teaching and that's why I got out of it for a couple of years. But now going back to it ...
N. You're going back on firmer footing?
Yeah. And the gallery keeps me ...
N. Keeps you focused. Opportunity is really important. I think people underestimate the value of opportunity, just for people to expand. If you waste a lot of energy trying to find the opportunity for yourself, then you don't have that energy to put into work.
You're absolutely right. And the opportunity in this sense is right there. If you're going to put that professionalism and that idealism as your goals then there are levels that you have to start to work up to. And I'm in that transition now.
M. What's the relation between those two, between professionalism and idealism?
Well ... Those are things we throw around, and good for you for asking what is the relationship...(pause)...The idealism is to keep pushing yourself and to keep challenging yourself, and that equates into the professionalism. It's the same.
N. Yeah, to do it full out.
Full out, better than before, as much as you can, everything out of the studio is nothing but great. And if you're going to keep that up then you're going to keep working and you're not going to ... you don't have time to settle for seconds. And you can't cry. And excuses don't mean much.
N. Yeah, no excuses. But it's also just having the clarity, that this is where I'm going. This is what I want. This is what I need. This is how I'm going to get it. And that is a professional attitude. You have to be professional to ask yourself those questions. Otherwise, it's amateur, it all depends on your mood.
M. Well maybe you have a conflict between professionalism and spontaneity.
N. Maybe a little conflict. But just spontaneity alone isn't enough to be professional. Maybe that's a better way to say it. Professionalism is bigger than that.